3D for NDS not recomended?

[Bruto]

I had started a thread regarding DS specs but it was closed;
anyway it's not really important although i didn't really get the reason.
Since this is an independent developers forum i would expect the platform
of choice wouldn't be an issue. Anyway that was just noticeable on my
first contact with these forums.

what matters is the administrator who closed the thread said that i
shouldn't bother with 3D on NDS and NDS development in general and
it seems that he knows something.

Since the thread about specs was locked i would like to ask anyone
who knows more about 3D on NDS positive or negative to contribute.

If you think these forums are not the appropriate place i would
appreciate it if you had a suggestion of a better place for that.

I also see this is mainly a coders forum do you know of any
forum with more balanced and preferably european
coders-artists participation?

I'm thinking of starting 2 game prototypes for submission..
an RPG and a Driving Game.The driving game will be 3D
the RPG wil be prerendered 3D with 3D elements (ToEE Style).

As a producer to be :) i would really be interested for your input
on the NDS 3D matter.

Thank You.

P.S.: any coders experienced in prototyping please reply to this thread.
i''m looking for an experienced self motivated coder partner on this.
preferably an EU citizen with real world mainstream game experience
who is interested in learning a new workflow and means business.

[BongPig]

Bruto, do you have dev status with Nintendo?

[moonpxi]

Bruto,

Checkout here: http://forums.indiegamer.com/showthread.php?t=1094

You thread wasn't closed, it was just moved to another section, more specifically "Game Development & Technical". I think it was fitting.

[moonpxi]

Completly ignore my last message!! I was too dumb and blind to read the last post on that thread. Argh, silly me... :(

Sorry!!!

[Bruto]

I have already contacted Nintendo and i'm working on it.

A major milestone towards that direction is the production
of those prototypes.

I wish i had secured Developer Status things would be much
easier this way.I would have access to the dev- kit and i
would have known the exact specs already.

I want to present something that will look close to a finished
DS product.

Good things in life come with hard work and a bit of risk. ;)

[Michael_Le]

Well to be fair to that thread's post maybe Nintendo will give out a special cartridge where you can download indie games from wi-fi.........not likely though I suppose, even though Microsoft does it with X-Box it doesnt seem like Nintendo would do such a thing.

[BongPig]

We have dev status with nintendo. Basically, anybody with dev status wont be able to share the info you need due to the NDA.
And you cant get dev status unless you submit through an official publisher.
So, you have to guess roughly the specs, in order to create a demo, to get some publisher interest, to submit to nintendo to get dev status!
Very long winded, but thats console development for you.

[Jim Buck]

I also was thinking "wtf?" when someone posted about "don't count on doing 3d" with DS. It has 3d hardware on-board (though not as good as PSP's :) ). Their specs quote a #-of-tris-per-second even. I have seen a screenshot of some 3d racing game for the DS. It didn't have any filtering on the texture-mapping, but it was still texture-mapped 3d polygons nonetheless.

[Dan MacDonald]

I've done 3D on cell phones so it's definitely possible on the DS.

The way the GBA market works is this, and I don't see it being any different for the DS market. You take a large license with instant brand recognition, weather is Finding Nemo, the little mermaid, or existing game brands like Mario or Metroid. In the case of the licensed properties like Nemo you spend about 3 months making a game and then you ship it with absolutely no advertising. You depend on the brand recognition of the license to sell the game, and it does. The margins are so slim in that business it's really not possible to do anything else.

It costs publishers the same to publish JoeIndie's game or the latest "the Incredibles" game. Nintendo's handheld platforms are great, and their fun to develop on. However they really don't hold any potential for indie developers. First Nintendo controls access to the distribution channel, you have to get it by them. Secondly you can't download cartages, they have to be sold at retail. Again, good luck getting a publisher without a major franchise. If you try to sell your game yourself without Nintendo's authorization you are engaging in illegal activities. All this adds up to a really crappy option for indie developers. As cool as it might be, don't waste your time. Do a web based or downloadable game that you can actually share with other people.

[BongPig]

Dan, I agree with you 100% in that, if anybody thinks they will set out to make an SD only game in the hope it gets picked up. You'll hit brick walls all the way.

But sometimes it can work out.
In our case, we were already making our 3rd PC game to sell online. Its an interesting little game, so we decided there no harm in showing it to a few publishers before we finish it as it was good enough to show.
We demo'd the game to a publisher who in turn was *interested* in turing it into a DS game. That interest alone got us into the dev program so thats part of puzzle sorted.
Where it goes from here is anyones guess, BUT, we've made relatively little effort to get this far, apart from making a PC version. Remember, the PC version we were already making for our selling online anyway.

So sometimes it can work out. If anybody is currently making a PC downloadable game which they believe might suit the SD, why not submit to a publisher or two? What have they got to lose?

HOWEVER. As I said earlier, dont set out to make a SD only game unless you already have a nintendo publisher that likes the concept, and even then theres a small chance your game will make it.

At least with a primary PC version you can alway stick with plan A.
The plan we all know and love. :)

[Bruto]

Hi Dan,

I don't understand your displeasure. I guess you went through
the channels in the past? Do you work in the industry as well
as making indie games? How old are you?

DS along with the innovative hardware brings a different way
of doing business with Nintendo. I know about the old ways.
About the number of cartridges one had to buy, the numerous
channels to pass and all that jazz. They have to do that. in order
to ensure that what happened in the 80's won't happen again.

All these have been discussed a lot in the past. Nintendo took notice
and changed stuff. I plan to try my luck and I’m not going to let
down that easily.

Marketing has changed distribution has changed ... it's time
for round two in the gaming revolution.

I plan to follow. If I fail well at least I tried :)

It is well known that the gba heart beats with independent small studios'
efforts. Europe is packed with small handheld and mobile game studios.
Belgium, Holland, France...

Perhaps it was a mistake posting here and thinking that independent
developers are independent because they have a vision and aspiration
to do as well or better than their big name previous employers instead
of sharing mini games as a hobby and patting themselves in the back
as you suggest.

I plan to inspire people with my games not put them down.

I'm determined, quite knowledgeable in my field and I have
a few ideas that I plan to do something about :)

Overly ambitious ? time will tell... Sorry for the ripples I caused...
I promise I won’t bother this forum with my “crazy” ideas ever again :)



Cheers

[Dan MacDonald]

Bruto, it's not that your ideas are crazy and your ideals are wrong. Quite the contrary, I think you are passionate about what you are doing and that's a big part of being an indie developer. The problem is that these forums are primarily targeted at the business side of indie game development. People who want to take their hobby and make a business out of it, or make enough from it that they can afford to work from home and do it full time.

You post here asking for the specs for the DS, I can only assume that you do not know the business implications of making games targeted directly at handheld platforms. Especially ones that are strictly controlled by large companies like Nintendo or Sony. This is pretty much exactly opposite of what people in this form are trying to do. People in these forums want to make their own decisions about the games they make and sell them how they want to sell them. This is in part the essence of independent game development, you get to make games without people telling you how to make them and when and where you can sell them.

If you want to make games for a console you are forced to go through a publisher and the publisher is going to have the last say about what you have or don't have in your game. Many of the members of these forums left that retail environment so that they could finally make their own decisions. You post about targeting the DS is almost the same as someone posting and saying "What are the specs for the X-box, I'm going to make an Xbox game"

PomPom is right , occasionally there are some opportunities on the consoles. Very occasionally. Oberon has been good about getting some indies on the xbox via Xarcade. That's great. But targeting consoles directly is something that the members of this forum have little interest in, it's not really appropriate to these message boards.

[aduro]

anybody thought about gizmodo/zodiac/ngage as an alternative to the gameboy/ds? of course their aren't as many users, but it is easier to get the sdk. the ngage 'cartridge' sdk requires some cash, but you can use the series 60 sdk instead. or use j2me. :)

[BongPig]

aduro & Bruto
Getting hold of the SDK doesnt automatically mean you can submit your games. Theres a very rigid system in place when it comes to developing for any platform apart from PC/MAC.
I would say its a dangerous thing for somebody starting out to try and target the mobile/handheld market.
The main problem is, if your game isnt accepted theres nothing you can do with it afterward. So effectivly you have to throw away all your hard work.

The only sure fire way to play it safe is to get interest from a publisher and get them to pay for development. This way, even if the game gets rejected, youve not spent a bundle of money getting it developed.

Not very indie, I know. But this is one of those situations where you really dont have a choice.

[BongPig]

Anyway, to turn this topic a bit more light hearted, take a look at this link:-
http://www.milkandcookies.com/links/22042/

How sweet is that? And all in 3D if im not mistaken.

[tolik]

Let me make it straight. It was me who said "don't count on 3d". It scares off the interest without the explanation.

I've seen development stories of people who made games for GBC (and the best demos!) and then tried to sell them for years. Ended with selling IPs for like 5000$ a game in order to survive and publishing EUROPE only in limited amounts on limited territories. The story continued with GBA (and fully featured high end games which outstanded DOOM 1. If you don't have a publisher, you are not in the big gamedev business and you don't have any contacts with producers or publishers, don't count on anything.

If you'll make a game which will technically challenge every single game on DS, you'll be rejected at once.
If you'll make "not enough innovative game" on DS, you'll not be published.
etc etc

We've seen it all in the past. Use search, we've already discussed this with GBA development.




You can get into this biz only if you hold any tails of the big guys.

I've heard that "downloading unlegal devkit, making a tech demo and showing it to publisher" only works in 5%. And yes, I remember a lot of examples that allow me to say 5% and not 10 or 20...