How does Bigfish work?

[codeminion]

Does anyone know what are the mechanics and the business model of an affiliate such as Bigfish games?

We have obsereved that they use regnow as their payment processor, but it seems that they are not acting as a standard regnow affiliate, because all their games are wrapped in armadillo customized by bigfish, so it is them who provides the unlock-code for the end-user, not the developer...

It seems more like exclusive publishing, that requires an agreement of some kind, but we heard that most of their games are non-exlusive. Does anyone know how does it work?

Thanks,

[ggambett]

Why don't you just ask them?

[lakibuk]

I don't know if they affiliate games as RegNow affiliate.
I know them as publisher. That means you send them your full version, they wrap it with Armadillo and sell it from their site. Then they pay you royalties according to the sales.

[James C. Smith]

They are not an affiliate of reg now. They are a “game store” who uses reg now to process their credit card transaction and issue reg codes. We make custom builds of all our games for Big Fish. We put the reg code entry screen inside the game rather than using any wrapper.

See the separate thread I just created to understand what I mean by “Game Store” (think MSN Gaming Zone, Yahoo Games, RealAracde, Shockwave.com, or Pogo)

[lakibuk]

I wonder why BFG is in the RegNows top 100 affiliate list if they are no affiliate?

[James C. Smith]

I was out of line when I said “They are not an affiliate of reg now”. I have no idea. They may be an affiliate of reg now. But my point was that many of there game do not come from the reg now affiliate program. They come directly from the developers. Many developers (such as Reflexive) have direct relationships with Big Fish Games and make special version of their games for Big Fish. Big fish didn’t get the games from reg now, they just use reg now to process the orders. But it is entirely possible, in fact likely, that they also get many games from the reg now affiliate program.

Here is what make the difference most clear to me. When Big Fish sells Ricochet, Reg Now does not send a check to Reflexive as the developer and a commission to Big as the affiliate. Instead, reg now send all the money to Big Fish who then pays Reflexive a royalty to Reflexive for being the developer.

[DFG]

They set up 2 accounts, 1 on the vendor side and 1 on the affiliate side. They affiliate with themselves which does 2 things:

1 - Gets them the top spot the Success Ranking

2 - Sets a cookie so if the customer goes to them first and gets their affiliate cookie, then goes to 1 of Big Fish's affiliates and gets a cookie, Big Fish gets credit since THEY set the cookie first. Quite clever but I am not sure if I would be too happy if I was an affiliate.

[codeminion]

Big thanks James for shading light onto this matter, here and in your new thread. One more question, while the topic is still hot:

How does a "game store" pay the developer? What we mean is, since there is no true affiliate-developer relation handled by a third-paty ( such as regnow )between the "game store" and the developer, how can one monitor the actual sales. The store sends him royalties ( how often? ) and sale figures, but how can the developer be sure that the figures have not been tampered with by the store?

We remember that when negotiating an exclusive publishing deal ( which we rejected in the end ) with one online publisher, it was stated in the agreement that we could go to their office and demand seeing their acounting books ;). Is that the only way of handling this problem?

[Jim Buck]

That's typical in a development contract. We had the same clause.

[princec]

wrt. the cookie business that's what you get if your business relies on a cheapass hack. Imagine that!

Cas :)

[James C. Smith]

... how can one monitor the actual sales. The store sends him royalties ( how often? ) and sale figures, but how can the developer be sure that the figures have not been tampered with by the store?

The frequency of royalty reports and payments is determined up front in the contract. Some “stores” pay developers quarterly but most pay monthly. Of course, they don’t pay right at the end of the month. It is usually at least 15 days after the end of the month. So if a game is sold on April 2nd, the soonest the developer would get the monthly for it is on May 15th but it would usually be later than that.

How do you know if they are honest about the number of sales? Well, it basically comes down to trust with the right to audit. But it is mostly trust.

I am speaking in general term here and not specifically about Big Fish Games.

[codeminion]

Wow, the recent threads have really helped us understand the whole affiliate/store/publisher thing. Since you are so eager to share your vast knowledge with us we've come up with some more questions :p

So, we understand now that it is possible to negotiate a "publishing" deal with an entity such as Oberon ( or even better Reflexive :D) to get your game on many game distribution channels incl. "game stores", regular affiliates and such, and still retain the right to sell your game as an indie on your own web site. If that is true, how difficult it is to get such a deal and what requirements must be met?

[Jason Chong]

How do you know if they are honest about the number of sales? Well, it basically comes down to trust with the right to audit. But it is mostly trust.


Oh boy that is asking too much from a person who's been burnt by dishonest publishers who didn't pay me a dime or advance after getting my game into retail stores everywhere including Germany.

Crystal Interactive got it distributed to many distros including one Magnussoft in
Germany.

Magnussoft GmBH still carry my game 'Laser Hawks' but i've never seen a single cent from it.

[Andy]

So, we understand now that it is possible to negotiate a "publishing" deal with an entity such as Oberon

Oberon? - No way at all... The raw of some strange emails how busy they are "on current stage" after half an a year delay, some strange contracts proposals from unknown outside copmanies (smells not so good), no any contact info about the company on their official site (emails only).
I woudln't recommend to waste your time on them - our personal experience of course...

[James C. Smith]

... how difficult it is to get such a deal and what requirements must be met?

This is getting too far off topic. You should start a new topic if you have questions not related to Big Fish. But I will say this: If you want a company to sell your game in their web store or through their distribution network then you should contact that company. The fist thing they will want is to see your game so they can decide if it is right for their audience. Assuming it is a good game, many places would be willing to sell it and would not require an exclusive. Reflexive and Big Fish Games would be two excellent places to starts.

[James C. Smith]

Oh boy that is asking too much from a person who's been burnt by dishonest publishers....

Then that’s your loss. Big Fish Games sends me a bug check every month. :D

By the way, not all companies work this way. Reflexive uses a system where the developer can see each individual sale in real time. You can test the system by making your own purchase and verifying that it is added to the sales report. Most (or all) order processing system do this, but many web stores do not forward this information to the developers. Reflexive does. I don’t want to sound like an advertisement for Reflexive. I am just saying not all web stores require the level of trust you are worried about. Some are more transparent and easier to audit.

[david_nixon]

Just wanted to weigh in with James as a voice from the publishers. My experience thus far with the known US-based publishers is that they all strive to be transparent and honest. Reflexive's reporting system is awesome, and most of the other publishers have that or have it coming. Reflexive has really set the standards for others to follow in that arena.

As for us (Oberon) - we are scrupulous about auditing ourselves every month. Word gets around this industry pretty quick if you aren't accurate and timely in your payments. Heck, publishers get a bad rep simply by not answering e-mails fast enough.

Thanks for the kind words, Andy - appreciate it.

--David Nixon
Director of Publishing
Oberon Media, Inc.

[Dan MacDonald]

I'll vouch for Dave he's a good guy, and Oberon is opening up some nice opportunites for indies that they would not have otherwise. Like ThinkTanks on the X-box for example. Micrososoft doesn't just knock on your door inviting you to make games for the X-box, It takes guys like Dave and companies like Oberon to do it.

[ggambett]

I'll vouch for Dave he's a good guy, and Oberon is opening up some nice opportunites for indies that they would not have otherwise.
Same here. Oberon has been great to us (and still is).

Nice to see you around here, David :)

[arcadetown]

We met with Oberon before. They seem very serious and professional and other top developers we know have said good enough things about them. Some people here just like to complain more than focus on positives which is much more productive.

[Andy]

@dave_nixon: Dave we both know for sure what I'm talking about. So please... - you are welcome...

@brian: Brian and you don't know. So please... I said that specifically "our personal experience". Claim and give the personal opinon based upon the real experience these are two different things - don't you suppose so? I could keep silence - but I felt myself obligated to warn another developers - that's all. What's wrong here? Especially after very positive feedback from another guys.

[david_nixon]

Awwww....I'm blushing. :) I appreciate the support guys, but enough is enough. We probably shouldn't hijack the board for an Oberon praising/bashing fest.


Although I am tempted to start a new thread on Publisher praising/bashing...that might be fun - and long-lasting.

--David

[saga]

I want to submit my new game to bigfishgames.com, but i don't know how to do it. anyone can help me?

[James C. Smith]

submissions@bigfishgames.com

[BantamCityGames]

http://www.bigfishgames.com/affiliates/developer.html

[Chris Evans]

I don't understand how some people can complete an entire game, but can't do a little digging to find contact info on a website? :confused: :)

[yanuart]

well.. sometimes those game stores make sure that no one can find it (this is not the case of bigfish though) by not putting it on their website :p
Probably they don't wanna people to spam them or submitting something that they're not really interested at the first place.
this happened to me when I tried to look for contact info for submissions.

it's a good thing this forum is existed :D

[Chris Evans]

I want to add somewhat in Andy's defense; most of the producers from these online portals are great to work with and easy to talk to when you have a game they want (as is expected). However, if after their initial interest for some reason they decide your game doesn't fit in with their audience, some of the same producers are nearly impossible to get a hold of and the communication can become very lethargic if not non-existent.

In my personal dealings, I've appreciated the producers who communicate well and give me straight answers in a timely manner. If they say they like my game, great let's do business together. If they say they don't think my game fits with their audience, thanks for letting me know in a timely fashion so I can move on.

Also, I don't mind the people or companies who don't respond to my initial e-mail, at least I know not to waste my time. It's the middle group of people who you get in discussions and negotiations with then all of a sudden communication ceases with no explanation. It doesn't take too much time to simply shoot off an e-mail or phone call saying "we're no longer interested in the game" for whatever reason. These people actually make me wary of doing business with them in the future since they only communicate with you when it's convenient. But as you know in business, things aren't always convenient. If especially I have a business relationship with someone I need to know that I can communicate with them in good and bad times.

So there's some good producers at these portals and there others where your mileage will vary. :)

[david_nixon]

Heh. Point taken Chris. Please note that I never indicated any any posting that what Andy said was untrue. :) He got a bum rap from us for sure.

We try to be accessible and responsive all the time...but we don't always succeed.

--David