Design Dilemma

[cliffski]

I've got a bit of a design dilemma on my rock star game thing.
The early part of the game is working fine, when you are a starting band, with no money and no audience, the playing ever bigger gigs, selling t shirts, writing songs, this is all fine, and I like the gameplay here.
The later part of the game is more jumbled...
I have coded in stuff about record companies scouting the band, and offering good (and bad) deals, and the whole 'record an album and get royalty checks' bit. The thing is, it doesn't have as much effort or fun, or design coolness as the rest of the game. I don't think I am really doing the 'late game' justice. In addition, the minigame associated with mixing an album could be better.

So....

my choices seem to be

1)finish up what I have and ship it, putting it down to being too close to the game to be objective.

2)spend time fleshing out the late game stuff, and hoping I can turn it around and make it better. Maybe ditch the mixing game, and come up with something better, or do away with it as a minigame

3)ditch record companies, and assume an independent band, but put effort into other aspects of the late game, in terms of megastardom and riches, but just assume all that can be done without record companies.

4)end the game earlier. Cap the maximum level of fame lower, so it makes mroe sense to not have record companies in the game. Declare victory when you are playing gigs to 1,000 people rather than 20,000, and accept the fact that the game doesn't have scope that goes beyond that.

Of course, most peoples gut reaction is to do 2), which is to just assume that with more work, everything can be fixed, but I'm not sure thats the wisest choice. I *may* have bitten off more than is sane, by covering the entire spectrum of the music business, with a 'granularity' that I have set as too fine.
I was thinking the game was close to being finished, but my last long playthrough gave me cause for serious thought on the topic. Any ideas? any opinions? any suggestions?

[Qitsune]

How long is the game if you ditch the record company and stop earlier? Any chance that you could decently release en "Episode 2" and integrate later stardom in that part using the feedback you get from episode 1?

[Musenik]

I'm not sure how much extra effort/cost this would require, but consider changing the end game with a new mini-game where the band can negotiate the contract. Think of this final round as a multiplier to the current score. It'll greatly expand the range of final scoring, encouraging replay.

I'm thinking something fairly simple like buying goods from a merchant in The Complete Odyssey. Elements like the band's game performance, to date, can be factored into the negotiating AI. Bands that have done well by themselves are given more leeway in bargaining, and are given more PR/attention by the record company, thus more total fans/larger audiences.

Some record companies can be sleazier than others, offering things that may not actually help the band grow their popularity.

Once the bargaining game is complete, give a final score of how many fans the band attracts at their peak.

The above idea may not gel with your current game structure, but it was fun to think about. One thought may lead to another, is my real hope.

good luck!

[papillon]

Any chance that you could decently release en "Episode 2" and integrate later stardom in that part using the feedback you get from episode 1?


This would probably be my bet as well - if the late game needs extra work, try to end it before then for now. Get initial feedback. Plot a "Rocking Out All Over" expansion for later.

[zoombapup]

It seems to me, you should end the first game when you get "the deal" and then make an add-on that goes into "from deal to megastar".

Having said that, my advice would be to put the game in front of some users and watch them play. See where they naturally find the breakpoint. See what they dont like about the end-game etc.

Another possibility is to have some "management" auto functionality manage the fine details at that point and move into the macro mode of it all. Does it go from getting gigs and press to getting huge gigs and TV deals?

Hard to say without a look at the actual mechanics of play.

[Bad Sector]

This would probably be my bet as well - if the late game needs extra work, try to end it before then for now. Get initial feedback. Plot a "Rocking Out All Over" expansion for later.

I third this option, that's what i thought while i was reading your post. Make it "rockstar", end the game where the band meets the record company and make a sequel or add-on once you figure out how to build the rest :-).

[luggage]

Stopping it there would seem like a natural point - would depend on how long it takes achieve it though. If it's only an hour long it would feel pretty short. On the other hand, if it's a good length then why make more work for yourself when you could use it as a nice sequel and charge again. Why not offer them a 20% off coupon to the upcoming "Rock Legend - Big Time!" as a reward for completing it?

[FlySim]

I think you should add some stuff about the pitfalls of rock stardom: rehab, tax troubles, paternity suits, band feuds.... :D

[Agent 4125]

I personally like #3. When people think about being rock stars, I doubt they fantasize about signing contracts and tweaking mixing knobs. Most people want to trash hotel rooms, give interviews on MTV, record ridiculous videos, date super models, play in huge arenas, etc.

You could just limit it to one record company, say Big Time Records. So when the player reaches a certain point, they get a nice congrats scene that says "You Hit it Big!" They sign on for a huge check and it's off to the next section.

Easier said than done, of course. #4 could work, but I think in that case you're targeting a different, and probably smaller audience.

Hope that helps.

[LilGames]

The game has an end? Maybe getting signed to a label is the big "end game" pay off.

[Uesugi]

Maybe the band could choose to sign with a label, or try to make it a go on their own, with finances much more of a concern.

I also agree that most people who download the game will want to experience the "fun" aspects of being a rockstar (groupies, trashing hotel rooms, road tours, etc.).

[Garthy]

Some random ideas, may be of some use or no use at all. It's very hard to tell without trying the game. ;)

- If you're concerned about your objectivity, find some people who will playtest it, or if comfortable, pass a timebombed beta copy off to a few people you know to get their opinion.
- Re (4), ending the game early, it'll mean that RockStar/RockLegend will become known as the game that takes you from rags to mild success. ;) I'm guessing a lot of your audience want to be able to win by achieving world fame. If you don't deliver, you are going to get unhappy customers, and they might be a little vocal. A "Star" or "Legend" isn't someone who plays to 1000 people.
- Larger (music) indies often have agents, even if they aren't signed to a label. Any aspect of the game that is awkward, not fun, or hard to code in the endgame can be something that is handled by the agent. Perhaps: At some point in the game you can hire an agent, and this gives you access to a whole bunch of new events/actions/etc. The player can still run the band but they have an agent handle the "boring details".
- I imagine most people are going to measure their success by how famous they become in the game. Would there be many people playing whose actual goal is to get signed up by a label? If not, there probably should just be a path to "indie" stardom. If so, it looks like there are two paths to pursue- making it big as an "indie", and making it big through a label. That's pretty-much two endgames, could be tricky...
- If you really want to release soon (option 4), you could end the game with a follow-on story. Basically a few screens showing the rise from successful indie to world stardom. Personally I'd feel a little cheated if the game stopped short of letting me play through that last bit, but you might get a better reaction from doing this than abruptly stopping when the player is starting to make an impact.

Hope this helps. :)

[Bmc]

I say number 1, depending on how long you've been developing this game, you may just be burnt out on the idea.

Why not do a soft release/beta and go from there?

[HDL]

It seems like you need to find a few people not so close to the project to do a playtest of it and offer their advice and opinions. You might just be too close to your project to see that you already have a perfectly good game on your hands. Or you might be right and perhaps your playtesters could give feedback on what they expect in the later stages of the game which could assist you in completing it.

I know that if I was buying a game about Rockstars I'd want the whole experience. I'd like to enjoy the rewards of my labours and experience fame and stardom as opposed to just having a "Game Over!" screen. I'd also rather resent being sold half a game with the intentions of selling the other half game later rather than polishing things up now. I know it must be frustrating seeing the end in site and then discovering that there's a few more bumps to overcome but I'm sure you'll manage it.

[MrQ]

Hey Cliffski,

From purely a market/fun perspective I would say go with #3 (or #2 if theres time). Focus on the fun aspects of being a rockstar...

Negotiating royalties isn't fun, but it may add to the game's immersion. I would personally focus on the things people like about rockstars, the bling, the fame and the riches.

Maybe an outfit shopping game would fit better than mix-down minigame.
You can choose your own 'high priced' rock outfit right? :cool:

[JoshuaSmyth]

I like the idea of a second mini game for a record deal negotiation.

Sounds like you just need some useability/beta testing.

[rockford]

Hi.
just for fun, do you know "Rockstar", created in 1990 by a french company on amiga ?

More info on : http://www.aitpast.com/index.php?page=jeu&id=155

Casual Games France, the french casual games blog
www.casualgames.fr (http://www.casualgames.fr)

[barrygamer]

Hi -- here are my thoughts, discard as required :)

IMHO your game really should go right through to megastar/legend -- surely that is the aim when the player starts? I love the idea, and would really not want it to stop half way! As other mentioned, players would want to be doing big concerts and selling millions.

If the early game works well, perhaps each feature can have a later-game equivalent, with a larger risk/reward? (so you don't need to code completely new stuff...). Perhaps you are treating those 2 stages too separately? Keep it simple?!? Yeah, easy for me to say. When a band is big, costs are higher, and the potential rewards/loss are higher. Mistakes in PR have bigger impact. Your band must spend more on production/videos etc, i.e. risk more to stay big.

I also thought it would be fun to see your bands' careers rated at the end, with their fame/fortune scores, so you can try to beat it next time -- good for replayability.

As for your point #3, I think record company deals are important, since most people recognise it as a big part of the process for rock bands? As 'Agent' says, could go for a simpler implementation.

Hard to discuss game without playing it -- but I have high hopes for K:RL!

[cliffski]

Thanks for all the feedback. I am still very torn on the right thing to do. I know some people would expect record companies to be in there, and some people will be annoyed if they *have* to take a record deal.
I've come up with a re-design of the minigame for making an album,. and its not a minigame any more but a strategic part of the game. I suspect when that's put in, I will feel better about the end game bit.

One of my problems is that the record company just gives you a pile of money and then takes a chunk of your earnings, with no other input (except a hype boost). I may restructure this so that you don't get money per-se, just an option to then record a CD, so you can have that situation some bands find themselves in where their first album is finished, but they are still struggling to make money on the gig circuit. At the moment you can take the record company cheque and just spend it on lasers and new instruments :D.

[Karja]

On a slightly different note: I've been following the development of the game, and something that's bugging me is the name. Or rather, the combination of the gameplay and the name. Rock Legends just doesn't fit all that well; it implies a more epic quest rather than getting 1000 people to watch you. (Or maybe even 20000.) If I were to play the game I would definitely feel a bit miffed at messing around with menial tasks if I'd downloaded the game with hopes of playing a -rock legend-.

With that in mind, I would prefer to see a sharp break in the game. After you reach a certain fame the gameplay changes scope wildly, and the old choices are delegated to roadies and managers and whatnot. So that you have a clear switch from wannabe to rock legend.

Or - as suggested - that the game was divided into two (gameplay-wise quite different) parts: "The Road to Fame" and "Rock Legend" or something like that.

But that's just my spontaneous thought without knowing much of the game, of course.

[LilGames]

One of my problems is that the record company just gives you a pile of money and then takes a chunk of your earnings, with no other input (except a hype boost). I may restructure this so that you don't get money per-se, just an option to then record a CD, so you can have that situation some bands find themselves in where their first album is finished, but they are still struggling to make money on the gig circuit. At the moment you can take the record company cheque and just spend it on lasers and new instruments :D.
The way I see it, your main target market is teenagers, so you may want to format the game's progression to the "stereotypes" that the average teen believes. In their eyes, they see a musicians' time-line as being:

-form a garage band
-win high school "battle of the bands"
-get first bar gig
-do a mini tour of dive bars, barely scraping enough for gas to the next town
-sell self-made lo-fi album at shows
-get scouted and "discovered"
-signed to big label which then opens the door for:
-- $$$
-- record/release polished studio album
-- interviewed in magazine(s)
-- make a music video
-- played on MTV
-- interviewed on MTV
-- big arena tour
-- big arena tour in countries outside of "home" country

You can even throw in "vices" to add some extra hurdles to further progression in the game. (Drugs, suicide, band member quits, stalkers, groupies, papparrazzi, ...)

[FreshlySqueezed]

(New boy alert, lead designer in the commercial industry trying to crack into the indie scene).

One low expense option which you might have already considered is allowing the player to foster new bands and talent when their current band is circling the big time.

Get them noticed as support bands while your established band headlines, for instance.

It's not going to add all that much in terms of depth, but it might be a nice way to increase longevity while being able to get the game out of the door without too much extra work.

[cliffski]

Dang.
There is just so much I *could* put in the game.
I'm trying to aim at a cross between the kids who are in garage bands, and the normal indie game crowd, inclduing the sims-lovers who bought Kudos, so itss tricky.

On the plus side, I have a completely redesigned album recording section now (as of this morning) which I think is much nicer.
I think I might try and keep in both the record-company subsidised, and the direct-indie approach.

I have tended to focus on the 'gigging in small clubs and selling the odd t- shirt' side of things, because that's what I did when I woz young. (There will be tragic 'hair-metal' pics of me on the credits screen to prove it.)

I dont have groupies, alcohol or drugs at all, because I want to keep the game family friendly. I've made all the musicians egotistical emotionally unstable pains in the backside to compensate for it :D.

[bignobody]

(There will be tragic 'hair-metal' pics of me on the credits screen to prove it.)

That's worth the price of admission right there ;)

I agree with others - the early on stuff sounds cool, but I would be disappointed if while playing "Rock Legend" I wasn't able to work all the way up to doing "the world tour". The "come back tour" would be too much though :D

[Raelifin]

This is what playtesters are for. ;)

[Backov]

If you really want to make it a rockstar game, have the majority of bands never make a penny after their initial advance. :)

[Vic Davis]

Dang.
I dont have groupies, alcohol or drugs at all, because I want to keep the game family friendly. I've made all the musicians egotistical emotionally unstable pains in the backside to compensate for it :D.

Couldn't you keep groupies in and still keep it PG-13? You have to have an event where Noko Yono hooks onto one of the band members and tries to dress up the band as animals of the Zodiac. How about psychopathic fans who follow the band around with the intention of someday wearing their skin as a dress? You don't ever have to be explicit about what a groupie actually does for the band.

[JoshuaSmyth]

This is a side but, if we get a record deal we can import our own album art right?

[LilGames]

PS: I think a sure-fire "sticky" idea for this game is to include an online "Pillboard 100" ranking actual players' progress against each other, depicted as songs.

[Nauris]

Call it quits when band`s single hits the Big League charts. Easier done with record lable, but make it so that it IS possible for unknown small time band to do that.
The rest would be just grind, the dream is fulfilled when that highschool girl who ditched you, hears you singing on the radio top charts. About broken heart, of course :)

[sound app]

4)end the game earlier. (sniiiip) Declare victory when you are playing gigs to 1,000 people rather than 20,000, and accept the fact that the game doesn't have scope that goes beyond that.

rule #1 of show bizz is: "let them wait and expect more". It's just like in a good horror movie: the best ones are (arguably) the ones where your imagination will do most of the work. In this case, why not get the band to a point where multiple choices are possible and have it end where everything is still hanging there ? The gamer could then be proposed a probable scenario based on the datas he already provided to get to this point of the game and his/her imagination will fill in the empty space...

[cliffski]

This is a side but, if we get a record deal we can import our own album art right?

letting you do this is on my list of 'would be nice' things to do once the rest of the game is finished and rock solid.

[RinkuHero]

You're far more experienced in this kind of stuff than I am, so take this with all my respect.

I think a game about rock stars without the things rock stars are famous for (drugs, alcohol, sex, crime, suicides) seems like you'd be cutting out more of the audience than you would gain by not including those things. It's sort of like creating a GTA game without car theft. Those things are pretty essential to the idea of being a rock star.

You might consider adding them in as options, and have two game modes (one family-safe and one normal). They don't have to be explicit either. I don't think too many parents would object if you treated the issues seriously. I was disappointed that Kudos didn't include the darker elements you mentioned in interviews too, that's one of the few flaws that game has, it doesn't really embrace all of 20s-30s life.

As for the question, I'd say that seeing as you said there is so much you can add to the game that it's best you wait a bit and add those things. This may be a stupid rule, but my rule for when to release a game is when I don't find that adding things to it significantly improves the game anymore, and haven't added anything to it that has truly improved the game in weeks, and can't think of anything else that is easy to do that would significantly improve it.

[Uhfgood]

One word : Sequels!

[Nexic]

My opinion is that if you call it 'Rock Legend' then you should be able to become a rock legend. I don't think you need to necessarily go into all the complexities of managment and contract negociation etc. I would just keep it similar to the early game, just on a larger scale. It doesn't have to be 100% realistic.